Uncover the power of rewiring your brain as Dr. Betsy Holmberg battles the tribal brain’s negative self-talk, choosing to leave behind her past and empower herself against the automatic survival mechanism.
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Show Notes | Transcript:The tribal brain thinks in terms of in groups and out groups. It’s looking at who’s in my clan and who’s my enemy that I’m scared of or I need to feel like I want to battle. And spirituality is about you know, we are all one consciousness, and we are all doing this together.” Dr. Betsy Holmberg
Dr. Betsy Holmberg is not your ordinary scholar. She’s an award-winning psychologist and author who has dedicated her life to unravelling the complexities of the human mind. At Harvard, she conducted research on non-suicidal self injury and suicide. Upon recognizing that mainstream literature couldn’t answer all her questions, she began investigating the brain’s hidden mysteries. She also ran the global behavioral health service line at McKinsey & Company, a premier consulting firm, where she ranked in the top 5% of all consultants.
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Explore the inner workings of the tribal brain and how to confront and control negative self-thoughts.
- Uncover the mysteries of the Default Mode Network and get insights on how to effectively redirect attention.
- Learn to distinguish between genuine thoughts and survival mechanisms to achieve a higher level of self-awareness.
- Delve into the fundamentals of meditation and understand how it aids in empowering your CEO Brain.
- Discover the role and relevance of antidepressants in tackling mental health issues.
Related Live. Love. Engage. episodes you may enjoy:
Sync Your Head, Heart, and Higher Self for Success with Hilary DeCesare
Noah St. John Unveils the Key to Conquering Your Inner Critic
Resources:
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TRANSCRIPT
Gloria Grace Rand
You’re listening to the Live Love Engage podcast on today’s show, how to end negative Self talk for good. Stay tuned. I am Gloria Grace Rand, founder of The L.O.V.E. Method and author of the number one Amazon bestseller, Live Love Engage – How to Stop Doubting Yourself and Start Being Yourself. In this podcast, we share practical advice from a spiritual perspective on how to live fully, love deeply, and engage authentically so you can create a life and business with more impact, influence, and income. Welcome to Live. Love. Engage.
Namaste and welcome back, podcast and YouTube subscribers. And also, welcome to anyone new to the show. I am so glad you’re here. And for those of you who may be just tuning in for the first time and don’t know who I am, I am Gloria Grace, the light messenger and spiritual alignment coach, helping women entrepreneurs clear the inner blocks keeping you stuck so you can put yourself first and live the life you want now. And I am so excited about today’s guest that we have on the show today because she is going to be talking about the tribal brain, and she has a wealth of experience in understanding what that is, and she’s going to explain it to us in a minute. But let me introduce her. She is Dr. Betsy Holmberg. She is an award winning psychologist, author, and speaker. She ran the mental health service line at McKinsey Company, which is a global consulting firm. And at Harvard, she conducted research on non suicidal self injury and suicide. And she also has a PhD in psychology from Duke University. So, like I said, she’s an expert in stuff dealing with the brain. So I’m going to bring her on here so we can get started with this interview today. So welcome to live love engage.
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
Hi, Gloria. I’m so excited to be here.
Gloria Grace Rand
Oh well, I’m… I love learning about the brain, learning about how the mind works. And so when I saw you, I was like, oh, yeah, we’re definitely going to have you on the show today because I think it’s so important for us to be able to understand how our minds work so that we can live fully, love deeply, engage authentically, which is what my show is all about. I know we’re going to get into this tribal brain, but what got you interested in it I’m curious to know, with all of your expertise that you have, what led you to focus in on this particularly?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
Well, it actually came from a kind of rough experience. So I was in the process of getting divorced. My husband had walked out on me in less than two years of marriage, and I was told by the lawyers to essentially do whatever is asked, whatever he wants, allow, because judges are pretty quick to make assessments of women that were withholding or were upset or were doing something. So I did do that. And yet somehow his lawyer had framed something little, just who drives the kid where as me not stepping up. And the judge turned to me and said, you’re not doing enough to support your relationship with your ex and his son. And something in me just snapped. And I felt like, okay, the only way I can get an A plus in this situation, the only way to do the right thing in this situation is to actually kill myself. Because if I kill myself, then he gets all the time. He gets all the time, right? And so I called my parents and I told them this, and they immediately flew out, which, now that I understand the neuroscience of the brain, was the best thing they could have possibly did. So we all lived together. I went on antidepressants and got help, and I got through. But three years later, I was still… I just wanted to get off my antidepressant and feel that I had healed from this divorce. And so every time I tried, the voice in my head came back saying, you can’t do this. You’re not good enough. You can’t have a job and be there for this child in the way this child needs. You’re a bad mom. You can’t do this. You can’t do this. You can’t do this. And I then kept going on antidepressant thinking that’s the thing keeping me going. And I will be damaged forever now. And I just wanted something more for my son than this. I wanted him to have a better life. And so I thought, enough is enough. I need to find out why I am so broken. Like, why am I so damaged? And it wasn’t in the trauma literature. It wasn’t in our standard therapy literature, which I’d done in graduate school. And so I went to the more current neuroscience and learned essentially the neuroscience of our thoughts and why we think these awful things to ourselves. And so that’s how it came to be.
Gloria Grace Rand
So tell us a little bit about why do we think these thoughts? Because I know it is common. I’ve heard statistics where they said, I think number one is like, what is it? 80% of the thoughts we think are the same thoughts and that we’re also sort of hardwired in for negative thinking as well. Tell us a little bit more about this.
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
It’s interesting because people have been talking about this forever, and the most recent ones who have taken the world by storm are Eckhart Tolle and Michael Singer. And they talk about how our thoughts are crazy and we shouldn’t be listening to them. And they use their own personal experience to explain why. And I love those books. I love all of that work. And every time I read it, I feel like, yes. And you feel, you just immerse yourself in what that life would be. And you’re like, this is so cool. And yet I never could hold on to it. It didn’t feel real because my thoughts felt like they were helping me. They were helping me figure out how to go about my day and be a good parent and a good employee. So what I realized in this is the literature, this is the neuroscience of what Eckhart Tolle is saying and what Michael Singer is saying. And essentially, it’s that we don’t have one thought network. Our thoughts don’t just come from us all the time. We have two. And the first network is what you think. It’s the ones that you’re choosing to think. But the second network is a survival system. And it is just think of it just like your stress system and how you get stressed when you’re in danger. And it’s your body’s way of trying to protect you and keep you alive. These thoughts are a survival system that looks at the norms of the clan. This all developed back when we were cavemen. And so it’s the norms of the clan and how to fit into the clan. And as long as you follow that, you will survive. You will stay a part of the community. When you don’t follow that and you get kicked out, then that is death, too. So these two systems operate very similarly. And what we have been mistaking as ourselves for all of these thousands of years is actually a survival system. And that just blew my mind.
Gloria Grace Rand
Yeah. And some of the learning I’ve done well, I would say it’s the spiritual growth that I’ve done, I’ve realized. And it’s something I write about in my book, is that whatever you believe, God, higher source, the universe, whatever I believe that we are part of that, that’s our true nature is that higher self, not this tribal brain, this survival thing that you’re talking about that we’ve learned. So how do we… you’ve said that we need to actually shut down this tribal brain. So how do we do that? Well, you’ve kind of telled us a little bit, I think, about why, but how can we even do that?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
So the secret lies in actually the neuroscience that first discovered that this system even exists. And so how it started was back with some fMRI researchers, and they were doing I don’t even remember what the study was about, something like visual learning. And so they put people in an fMRI machine and they said, hold on a second, it’s going to take us a bit to get module one up. And they’re recording the whole time. And then they put module one up and they get all of the activation they expected to get in the brain. And then they said, all right, hold tight for two minutes. We’re going to go on to module two. They shift it out, and then they start module two. But what they noticed is that in that downtime, when people are on an fMRI machine, their brain activates this network. And they were like, guys, this is weird. Do you see this? And they went to all their friends and all these different labs and they’re like, is anyone else seeing this network that’s popping up when nothing else is going on? And they said, yes, we do. So they called it the default mode network and said, this is the brain’s default wiring. Like this is what it does when it’s not doing anything else. And so this is the key to how to shut it off is to know that those two, your two thought networks are either or. It’s like a light switch. So either you are controlling your thoughts, you’re deciding what you want to think on, what you want to focus on, what you want to be present for, or this thing is running in the background and then this thing just takes over and you’re listening to it. And that is so our human experience. So in order to shut it off, in order to stop listening to it, you need to decide where your attention is going and do that instead, and it will go away.
Gloria Grace Rand
Now, I’ll have to tell you, I’m going to play a little devil’s advocate here and say that sounds a lot easier said than done. So what would you say to someone listening going like, oh yeah, sure, just change my thoughts. I know that’s what people say, change your thoughts, change your life. But in practical terms, especially if this is something that you’re used to doing all the time for years and years, maybe decades, how do you then, what do you recommend people do to be able to do that to shut it off?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
Okay, I’ve got two thoughts on that because I love you playing devil’s advocate, because that’s when you get to the juicy stuff. So the first thought is that knowing what this thing is makes it lose its power. So if you see it as and I definitely see this, I see it as the real housewives of me, and I feel it’s like a TV that’s on. And you know how you can not listen to a TV? You can just be on in the background and you’re kind of doing your own thing. You’re probably listening to your tribal brain. You’re turning this thing off too. So just knowing what it is, is the number one help. But then when I was writing, I was in the middle of writing the book. I had just had a few weeks of feeling the stillness and the presence that happens when you get out of your tribal brain. And as I start writing and trying to figure it all out, I cannot stop my tribal brain. And I thought, this is ridiculous. You are writing the book on it and you can’t do it. So this is very true. And what it is is there are the three nasties that make it impossible to turn this thing off. One is fatigue when you’re tired. Another is stress and another is emotions. And essentially what it is is your brain it’s like an inventory system. So the last thing to evolve. The last thing to develop is considered the most extraneous and therefore is the first to go in times of stress or an emotion. So this happens with different bodily functions too, right? And so your choosing thinking brain, your CEO brain, if you will, gets shut off and what persists is this tribal brain. So there will be times where it is impossible to shut this thing off. And then to me, what we now are learning is that we have to use different self care now that we know what is going on to support ourselves through those times.
Gloria Grace Rand
You’ve blown my mind right now. Like I said, I geek out on the science behind this. And that is just so cool. What you’re just talking about that, yeah in times of stress and when you’re dealing with I would also say pain, I would think, too, is another big one, which sort of goes hand in hand with stress sometimes and fatigue that you can’t shut it off. What I’m thinking of is that to make people understand that it’s okay because I think sometimes when we do go down that road, then we start even making it worse because then we’re punishing ourselves for that. It’s like, oh, why do I keep because I’ve done this in the past too and I’ve had a coach call me out and say, stop beating yourself up over this stuff. And I can see where that can happen. So I know for me the practice that I found that helps me tremendously has been meditation. Is that.. again, what do you recommend people do, especially if, let’s say they are tired and they have these things going on, but they know, and I love that being aware is certainly that first thing, that awareness that you’ve got a problem and you want to change it. So what do you recommend people do to concretely be able to manage this?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
Sure. So we’re kind of talking about two things. We’re talking about that in the moment when you are stressed and you are fatigued and your brain is doing it. My brain still does it all the time and it will tell me all these nasty things. And I use that now as oh, that’s my cue. I am in tribal brain mode and what I have to do is distract myself. And so I’m totally getting it. And what I really work hard on is to not let it spiral because that’s what tribal brain thoughts love to do. They love to go from you got a bad grade in a test to you’re never going to get a job, to you’re going to live in your parents’ basement forever. I mean, it just goes to we’re all dying, homeless and alone. Right? That’s where it leads you. And so I try to not let it, I try to catch myself when I spiral and then I also, I watch stupid movies, I try to listen to music. I literally would do whatever it takes to not hear it. And the other thing I would do in the moment is what I find is now once I then get the sleep or I am less stressed the next day, I am just like, woo! I’m glad that’s over with. And what I used to do is I used to say, oh, so I thought that I’m a loser or I can’t do this. And now do I need to be shifting my life? I mean, I would believe those tribal brain thoughts and then bring them into the next day and I would be the one to lead them. And what I realized is I don’t have to do that anymore. I can leave them in that day, be thrilled they’re gone, and then have a fresh new day and have those have no meaning in my life. Now, the second thing you brought up, which is so awesome, is meditation. And the neuroscience of meditation shows that it strengthens your CEO brain and it weakens your default mode network, your tribal brain. Neural networks, guys are just like muscles, so the ones you use get really strong and the ones that you don’t use get weak. So what meditation does is it’s focusing either on stillness or your breath or a mantra, but it’s persistent focusing, and that’s strengthening that CEO brain. And so when they stick heavy meditators in an fMRI machine, it’s coolest thing ever. They look completely different from an average person. An average person looks like tribal brain, tribal brain, tribal brain, a little bit of CEO brain, then more tribal brain. And meditators look like CEO brain, a little bit of tribal brain, and then CEO brain. And it’s so pronounced that they actually said, we’re going to call this the new default mode wiring of the brain, because meditators can literally have completely rewired their brain to not listen to the tribal brain.
Gloria Grace Rand
And again, it’s so nice to hear science back up what I’ve felt intuitively and seen in my life. I’ve been meditating now since 2009. So however many that years, how many years? Whatever. You know what I mean?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
Exactly what you mean. Yeah.
Gloria Grace Rand
Exactly. And I have noticed over the years that it has truly, number one, it’s raised my tolerance level for things that used to stress me out. And number two, it has made me more aware. And this has also helped with different coaching that I’ve done, working with different coaches. But I have been, like you say, able to start catching myself when the tribal brain starts coming and going like, okay, do I really want to go down that road? Do I really? Nah, I don’t think so. And I can catch it a lot quicker. That’s not to say that I don’t still go down there, because again, I do still go down that road once in a while. And it’s so much better that I don’t stay down there as long and I’m able to come back. So that’s where I do feel there’s hope for people. And the other thing you mentioned early on, and I’m so glad that you did do this research, is that you talked that you were on antidepressants and I think they are helpful for so many people. But then I also think sometimes it’s just become a crutch that the medical profession relies on, let’s say, or some people in the medical profession, because there’s others, lots of other people out there who are also helping and looking for alternative ways to be able to help people with things like depression and anxiety. What’s your thoughts on that? Is it coming from your experience in that and yeah, just, just in general, maybe just what’s about it?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
To me it’s all so interconnected. So that sense you’re getting of not going down that path after meditating for a while, how you feel like you’re a little less reactive, a little less likely to negative spiral, I mean that is essentially the experience of how meditation is protecting you from anxiety and depression. Anxiety and depression are when we are in our tribal brains all the time. And it’s almost the the more we spend in the tribal brain, the more anxious and depressed we’re going to feel. And so when you’ve hit a clinical depression like I did, or a severe anxiety, that is a time when you have been in the tribal brain for so long that it has gotten so strong that it is coloring your entire world. And what I found really helpful, so I’ve looking back on myself and what that experience was, I think that my CEO brain was too weak to ever be able to try to bring it back myself. And I needed that antidepressant. And what that antidepressant did is it stopped those thoughts for me. It stopped me cycling and I could kind of look around and take a deep breath and not feel like things were so awful anymore. And I now can see that what it was doing is it was starting to shut down the tribal brain and it was giving my CEO brain a chance. So there is a place where for folks who are really struggling, like getting therapy, having antidepressants, these are all personal trainers for your CEO brain and to try to weaken that tribal brain and bring you back to you, to what you care about and where you want to put your attention and your thoughts and your energy. And so I think there’s very much a place for them when we get down to those low levels.
Gloria Grace Rand
Yeah. And that makes sense because there has to be something to break that pattern, as you say, to be able to kind of pull you back a little bit. And thank heavens there are things out there like that. There are like antidepressants that can help you. I’m going to ask you this because you’ve been dealing with all this research and looking at the brain and how it works. What is a commonly held belief about let’s say, maybe how the brain works in general, that you passionately disagree with.
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
The one that came to me in this, which blew my mind, was that there’s a commonly held belief, I think, therefore I am, and my thoughts are who I am. They’re what make me me. They’re my personality, they are my ego. They’re this. And I was really startled to learn that my thoughts have nothing to do with me and who I am and that I’m having these thoughts as an automatic primitive survival mechanism. I’m not really believing those things. And it’s only when I hear the thought and then latch onto it and believe it that it started to have any sort of effect in my life. And that was wild to me. I mean like that that was a huge mindset shift. We’re so mind oriented in our culture, and we so, we loud the brain and put it up on this amazing pedestal, and it deserves to be there. I’d say the CEO brain deserves to be there, but we need to shove this other thing. We need to put it in a loincloth and send it back to the caveman days, because that’s what it came from, you know?
Gloria Grace Rand
Yeah. And I think that’s I’m just thinking now. It’s sort of the root of a lot of the problems, shall we say, in our society with so much discord out there. And it’s that people are just talking and reacting from the tribal brain. They’re not stopping and thinking and breathing enough to say, wait, this is true, or what is true? And we don’t even know. It’s just we’ve just gotten into this habit of just reacting and not letting this other part of our brain, this part that is more compassionate, I think for one thing.
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
I think this is a reason why spirituality can really be such a balm for a lot of people and can help them through really hard things. Because literally, spirituality is the opposite of the tribal brain. The tribal brain thinks in terms of in groups and out groups. It’s looking at who’s in my clan and who’s my enemy that I’m scared of or I need to feel like I want to battle. And spirituality is about you know, we are all one consciousness, and we are all doing this together. Right? You just go through like the tribal brain is all about the hierarchy and what is your role, and are you performing your role well enough? Because if you don’t respect the hierarchy and respect authority, if you don’t play your role, that could be bad for you. And you know, in spirituality, there are no roles. There is no hierarchy. God is love. You are God. It’s all the same if you go through one by one. It’s amazing how a lot of our problems, like war, is a classic tribal brain approach to life and the teachings of Buddha and Jesus, and all of those are a CEO brain, a more, a more true to our soul kind of way of life.
Gloria Grace Rand
Yeah, definitely. So how can we… other than you’ve written a book and speaking out on podcasts like this one, and I’m so glad you’re here. How can we just the everyday person, let’s say, start doing this and spreading the word to be able to encourage other people to do this?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
So, I think the first thing is to talk about it is to discuss how, if one of your friends so one of the best things that we’ve used forever for our tribal brain is in person interactions. So if I come to you and I say, I have been feeling so down, I am not doing well at my job, this and that, you’re then there to say, no, you’re doing a great job. You’re just down on yourself and you, you soothe me. And then the other side of it is, if I do something really crappy, then you look at me and say, that was terrible, and you really hurt that person’s feelings, and I get that feedback, too. So we’ve always used our in person interactions to temper the tribal brain. And that’s where online, the whole online world is so challenging because it’s not in person. And so people are just letting their tribal brains go haywire. So this is all to come back to when you are with girlfriends and everyone’s talking and they go into, I feel like I’m a bad mom, or I feel like I can’t do that. I’m not educated enough to get that promotion. It’s to say, don’t listen to that. That’s just a survival system in your head; that’s automatic. You don’t really feel that way and like go for that promotion, or you’re an awesome mom. We can be there with each other and show each other how really off these negative thoughts are.
Gloria Grace Rand
Yeah. And I think that’s where community can be so beneficial. I’m just thinking for my experience, when I first moved, I was living in the Miami area, and we moved up to the Orlando area, and I had left a lot of my friends behind. And so I was trying to find a group to be able to meet some new people. And there was an organization at the time called Mothers and More, and it was for working moms, stay at home moms, what have you. But we would get together at least once a month, and we would do that kind of talk about the challenges of motherhood and lift each other up and say, oh, yeah, I’ve been there, done that, and this is how I got out of it. And I think it’s so helpful to be able to find that community, or even if it’s just a small group of friends that you, as you say, you can be able to connect with them and say, hey, how are you doing? How are you feeling? What’s going on in your life? And then remind them yet. Yeah, you’re good. It’s that tribal brain that’s trying to take over. Don’t listen. Don’t let it, right?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
Absolutely. And you know, for any, and it’s also helps us understand how to help people who are struggling. So I recognize now that when I was having those suicidal thoughts, that was my tribal brain essentially outgrouping me. That was my tribal brain saying, you are the sick animal that needs to go into the forest and die and not hurt the rest of the clan. And what happened that was so powerful is my parents coming out and living with me and making me part of an in group really helped assuage those thoughts and helped me get over them because it was like, no, I am part of a group and I am here together. So if you have a friend that is struggling, reach out to them and make them feel included. Show them your love and even if you’re not getting the response back that you would hope, it still means the world to them and will hopefully help them get out of that dark place.
Gloria Grace Rand
Yeah, good advice. I appreciate that. I want to ask you this other question because I love to see what people have to say in response to it. So what are you curious about right now?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
What I’m honestly most curious about right now is I’m interested in male stereotypes and the tribal brain. And I’m kind of diving, diving into the research of that because there’s so much about our concept of what it is to be a man in this world that is you need to have no emotion, you need to have control over others. And all of these really are like little tribal brain flags for me. And I feel like I would like to be interested to do some work on understanding how the tribal brain has created this male archetype that is so devastating for men and is really not fun for us all to deal with either, you know to interact with. And to try to flesh that out and figure out how we can start to update what it is to be a man and what it is to be a man role model. And with using this science.
Gloria Grace Rand
I look forward to what you come up with because I’m sure there’s probably another book in your future then I suspect. Speaking of which, you mentioned that you wrote a book and I didn’t get to actually mention that in your bio. So what is the name of your book?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
I don’t even have a name yet. And I should have a name because they’re supposed to do that. But I wrote a book, I put all of the literature down and then I started talking to people and coaching people on this and then I realized that I structured it entirely wrong and people really wanted to know different things. So I am back to the drawing board and reshaping it to hopefully make it something that can really help people. So what it is now is it’s a bunch of case studies of the common stuff we all deal with. So when you feel stuck and unmotivated, when you don’t feel like you fit in, when you’re being really hard on yourself and you feel you’re a bad mom or you feel you’re about to get fired when you’re suffering from anxiety or depression. So all of these different case studies we do impostor syndrome, that’s a big one, and walking through what the tribal brain is doing and how to stop it, what are the key tricks you can do to get yourself out of whatever that is?
Gloria Grace Rand
Wow, look forward to that. And yeah, I know. Putting a book together, it is definitely a process. I’ve been there, done that. And I still just love this whole concept of the tribal brain, because I’ve heard other people call it different things to what you’re referring to. But I think this really puts it in a good way that everybody can understand and appreciate that it’s something that it was appropriate when we were all, it was living every day was a matter of survival, whether you’re going to be attacked by a wild animal or whatnot. But life right now in the 21st century is not for most people, not 100%, but for most people, it’s not quite that way. And we can relax a little bit and focus more on that CEO brain, which I love that terminology, too. I love it.
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
And it’s also, it was designed for us to live with 30, 40, 50 people. It was not designed for our world nowadays. And so I often think of that when I’m nervous, walking up to a group of people that I don’t know. It’s like, well, of course I am. This would never have happened when our brains were first developed. I mean, this puts every single warning sign in going off in your head. So knowing that also helps us release it. I mean, to me, we’ve all talked about monkey mind. We’ve talked about this. It’s just I think in our culture, we value our monkey minds. We think our monkey minds have something worthwhile for us. And that was my big ah-ha is, oh my gosh. It really has nothing. It’s an alert system and it’s really dumb. And I really have to stop listening to this thing.
Gloria Grace Rand
I love it. I absolutely love it. I think it’s fantastic what you come up with, and I hope everyone listening is taking it to heart today. Which leads me to my last thing that I wanted to ask you about, and is that if someone is listening to you and you mentioned that you do some coaching. So if someone wants to be able to connect with you, learn more about what you’re up to in the world, what’s the best place for people to do that?
Dr. Betsy Holmberg
Sure, you can go to my website. It’s www dot betsyholmberg.com, betsyholmberg. And you’ll see a contact box on there, you can reach out to me. I get all those emails. I’ll respond to all of them. And you can follow me on Instagram and Twitter as well. And, yeah, thank you so much for having me. This has been such a pleasure, Gloria.
Gloria Grace Rand
Oh thank you. I really do appreciate it. And I look forward to, like I said, I suspect you’ll have a second book or maybe you’ll put the Men’s research into this one, depending. That’s a possibility. Nah, do two books. That’s better. Second thought. Yeah. So thank you so much for being here, and I also want to thank all of those of you who’ve been watching and listening for being here as well. I so appreciate you. And if this is your first time and you’re not subscribed, I encourage you to subscribe on your favorite podcast platform if you’re listening on Apple or Pandora, what have you. And until next time, as always, I encourage you to go out and live fully, love deeply, and engage authentically.
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