Have toxic relationships ever drained your energy and left you questioning your worth? You’re not alone. In this powerful episode, I sit down with Deborah Ashway, a licensed counselor and mental health expert, to explore the complex world of toxic partnerships and narcissistic abuse.
Podcast: Play in new window | Download
Subscribe: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Pandora | iHeartRadio | Podchaser | Email | RSS
Show Notes | Transcript“Start right away, just start documenting, start learning about it. Start trying to become a little bit more independent of that person.” – Deborah Ashway
Drawing from her extensive experience as a therapist and podcast host, Deborah shares invaluable insights on recognizing the subtle signs of toxicity in our relationships and taking the first steps towards healing.
Discover how to:
- Recognize the subtle red flags of toxic relationships
- Use journaling as a powerful tool for clarity and self-validation
- Establish healthy boundaries in both personal and professional relationships
- Reclaim your independence and rediscover your authentic self
Key insights include:
- The importance of listening to your body’s signals and trusting your intuition
- How toxic individuals often foster a sense of dependency in their partners
- The role of self-compassion in the healing journey
- Why getting perspective is crucial for breaking free from manipulation
Deborah also introduces us to innovative healing modalities like EMDR and expressive arts therapy, explaining how these techniques can help reprogram faulty cognitions and activate our innate healing abilities.
Whether you’re currently in a toxic relationship, healing from past trauma, or simply want to build healthier connections, this conversation offers practical strategies and compassionate guidance. Tune in to start your journey towards reclaiming your power and living authentically!
Resources:
Join the Soulful Women’s Network here
Receive daily inspirational email messages: bit.ly/LoveLightNotes
Need support? Go to engagewithgloria.com to schedule a call.
Connect with Deborah
Website: innersourcetherapy.com
Podcast: Healing from Toxic Abuse
Connect with Live Love Engage:
Send Gloria Grace a message
☕ Support the podcast
❤ Love this episode? Leave us a review and rating
LinkedIn: Gloria Grace Rand
Facebook: Gloria Grace Rand
YouTube: Gloria Grace Rand
TRANSCRIPT
Namaste. Imagine breaking free from a toxic relationship to discover a version of yourself that won’t be manipulated and is even stronger than before. Well, today’s guest is going to be shedding light on how to heal from narcissistic abuse and toxic relationships so you can return to your truest self. But first, I do want to welcome you to Live Love Engage. If this is your first time. I am Gloria Grace, founder of Align to Shine Academy, and I work with spiritually minded women entrepreneurs to helping them to break free from self doubt so you can step into your highest potential. And joining us in just a moment is Deborah Ashway and she is a licensed counselor and owner of a mental health services practice. She is certified in EMDR and trained in expressive arts and meaning that she actually treats the root cause of most mental issues. And she also is a podcaster as well. She hosts a podcast called Healing from Toxic Abuse and which I was pleased to be a guest on. So without further ado, I’m going to bring her up here and welcome you, Deborah, officially to Live Love Engage page.
Thank you. Thank you, Gloria. Thank you so much for having me and for Grace, actually and for letting me be on your show.
Well, yeah, absolutely. I, you know, hey, that’s, that’s what we do, right? We, we like to support, to support one another and, and really especially with the messages, you know, that, that we have to share. And I think it’s important to, to help people thrive, you know, to, to. Well, as I say at the end of the show, live fully, love deeply and engage authentically. And, and sometimes they need some help in doing that. And I know sometimes it might be that they are experiencing things like toxic abuse or, and, and maybe they’re not sure that they are and maybe thinking that it’s just a normal relationship challenge. So I thought we’d start with maybe could shed some light on what would be some like, subtle red flags that maybe people don’t realize, like I think I might have experienced in my life, frankly.
Yeah, I mean, there’s so many. But I would start with the self. I, I would always just kind of start with your own body reactions, your own intuition. And if you think that, look into it a little bit further if you’re, if you’re thinking that your relationship might be toxic. I mean, start there and then, you know, go through what you’re experiencing. Go, start to narrate your reality a little bit. Like, are you feeling anxious? Are you feeling depressed, are you feeling confused, Are you feeling forgetful? These kind of Are all signs that the body is experiencing something that’s not in a line necessarily with your truest self? Because when we’re our truest selves, we don’t. We don’t necessarily feel all that. The nervous system isn’t as engaged, so we want to be in a state of calm. And if we’re not consistently we, you know, start looking around in your environment.
Yeah, that’s so important because it really. Our. Our bodies are such wonderful tools that they really can help us to signal what’s going on in our life if we just start paying attention to it. So it’s. Yeah, I like that. And as you were talking, I’m almost started thinking about other relationships, you know, like that we have, you know, maybe friends and, and who maybe sometimes see things that we don’t see. Can you talk a little bit about that? And, and because I know sometimes we, you know, we have these blinders on and maybe, you know, sometimes it goes the other way. But I think, you know, is it. How important is that to maybe really not be quick to, you know, reject what someone’s trying to tell us?
Yeah, true. I mean, you’re going to get, you know, a variety of opinions from a variety of people, and everybody’s going to come at it from their own experiences and from their own perspectives. So we want to kind of take that with a little of caution right there also. But if you’re hearing from multiple people that they. That and they’re asking you, are you okay? Is everything okay? Are you happy? You know, and. Or that they’re seeing a difference in you and they’re asking about your relationship, kind of look at that a little bit more too, because other people tend to be able to see it sometimes easier than. Than when we’re in it ourselves. When we’re in it, we are blind to it.
You’re. You’re absolutely right. We can’t see as clearly because it’s too close to us. Plus we’ve been manipulated and led to believe and that this person or this friend or whoever is around us is, you know, we see. We want to see the good in them. So we start to believe that they are a good person, that they have our best in tensions at heart, whereas other people aren’t quite so, I guess, you know, conditioned to see that or, or manipulated. So it’s easier for them to see from an outside perspective. Just like if you were from an outside perspective looking in, you could see it much easier. So we kind of need each other. We need to, you know, you Know, kind of get some of that feedback.
Yeah. And okay. Oh, yes, I know where I was gonna go. I was like, what was I going to ask? But. Because I was paying attention to your answer. But I, I think before I go any farther in, in this discussion, it might be helpful actually. I. Because I think these terms do get thrown around a lot. You know, narcissism and narcissist. And can you maybe just give some clear examples of what, what that type of behavior is like and how it does then, you know, because we’re all narcissistic to a point, but, but where it starts veering into being toxic.
Yeah. Okay, so. And there in Narcissistic personality disorder is a DSM diagnosis, but it has become sort of like a shorthand in, I guess, just, you know, our communication in general, just society right now lately, for somebody that is manipulative or focus focused on themselves. So I, I kind of like to use more like a broader term like anyone along the dark triad, which means they could be on that, that cluster B or personality disorder so includes a lot more than just narcissistic personality disorder. There’s borderline personality disorder, there’s histrionic, you know, there’s sociopathic and, and, and so really all of those kind of share some components. And it kind of goes back to. There’s four main things that they’re looking for to support their weak sense of self or their ego. So they have a very protective ego because they have a very weak sense of self. And the four things that seem to overlap are that they need consistently either power, admiration, attention or control, some variation of those four things. And with, with narcissistic personality disorder, it seems to be more heavily geared towards the need for admiration and attention. And as you go up, you know, that, that spectrum then the sociopathic or antisocial seems to be a little bit more based in control. So just to give you an idea, I mean, we do use narcissistic, you know, or narcissist pretty loosely in today’s language. But it really, truly is a disorder. And there’s a, there’s a lot of markers that go along with that, you know, that we do for assessments when we want to find. Find that out or look closer.
Well, I appreciate that. And, and I think that is important because I know I have a, I picked up a book a while a couple years ago about, about. I forget what it’s even called, but something about narcissistic relationships. And, and because I was, you know, thinking, you know, that possibly I Might have been in one. But also even realizing that, I think actually I was raised by a mother who had a lot of these tendencies. But I like that you said, you know, that. That it’s really more than that. That it can be, you know, these other issues about, like, control as opposed to just, you know, admiration and things like that. I want to also talk about a little bit. Let’s, let’s. Because I know it’s like, it’s tough to be in this relationship. And so we want to be able to get healed. And I mentioned, you know, as part of your bio that you’re certified in EMDR and trained in the expressive arts, which was something I have heard of. EMDR. I have not heard of the expressive arts. So I wonder if you could just explain a little bit about what these modalities are. If someone listening or watching doesn’t know, and then. And then how they can actually help to heal.
Yeah, okay. Well, EMDR is eye movement desensitization reprocessing. So that’s just really fancy way of. Of talking about how we get to the. We. How we activate the part of the brain through eye movement. And eye movement is, you know, taken from, I guess, what happens in REM sleep. And in REM sleep, our eyes go into rapid movement and it seems to activate that part of the brain where the sensory inputs come in, and then they get marked with an emotional marker. So during REM sleep, our brains are, like, processing that and digesting that. They’re getting rid of some of those sensory inputs and emotional markers that are paired together that aren’t necessary because, you know, we can’t store every single thing. So it’s digesting that as we sleep. And so what we’re trying to do in EMDR is when these emotional inputs come in, I mean. I mean, sensory inputs come in, and then they get paired with the emotional marker, and then that goes into, like, a neural network of other similar associations. But if they don’t get processed the right way, or if they cause us to have these false beliefs, because our protective system might have formulated that, thinking that that’s what we need. And it’s very similar to any kind of training of any kind of animal, because our bodies are pretty much like animals. I mean, it’s. We’re gonna. You know, our bodies, our nervous systems are constantly at work to try to protect us. Do we go towards it or do we go away from it? So it gets these. These emotional markers and then, you know, puts it in a neural network of other associations. So that we know when other similar sensories come in, we, we know what to do and how to navigate that. But if it gets faulty programming because we’re, for example, you said, you know, maybe raised with a, a parent, a caregiver who does these manipulative tactics. So our world is, you know, set up, the map of our world is set up with that. And when, and when those programs are faulty, like I have to stay out of the way or I have to be quiet, or I’m not allowed to be angry, or I’m not allowed to be upset, or I’m wrong all the time, or whatever the body, whatever the protective system is put in place in emdr, what we try to do is we try to go in and really reprogram that. And these, you know, this, these faulty cognitions is what we call them, they come up when a similar sensory comes in and it causes us to go into sort of like a low key fight, flight or freeze or fawn mode. And it doesn’t really, it doesn’t serve us at all if we’re, you know, if, if our navigating system or nervous system is telling us that we’re a bad person and that we shouldn’t be, you know, getting angry or upset, then we’re not going to respond in our best interest. So we, in emdr, what we try to do is we try to. First we try to train the nervous system to calm down and we do that through what’s called resourcing. And then we start to activate some of these memories. Once we’ve got a little better at training our nervous system at calming down, then we start trying to activate some of these memories or these cognitions and we, you know, we go into the body. Where are we feeling that in the body? And we, we try to pair it with a new cognition. Like I am worthy. I, I do have a right to my feelings. I do have a right to be upset.
Yeah, thank you. And I was. Because I was going to ask you if you could provide examples. So that was perfect. So, yeah, I, and again, I love how it, you are tapping into our own innate, you know, capabilities and working with, you know, the brain and using what we, what we have. But because our brains can be rewired, I mean, and that’s the great thing that I know this is really excellent at helping with. Now I want to then go into this expressive arts because that’s, I love anything with art and that, that always, you know, kind of tweaks my ear and then, and expressing. So how does what is. What exactly is that and how do you use that?
So that activates the same part of the brain, which is. It’s really, you know, the amygdala, and that’s the creative processing. And I. I guess that’s where all, you know, all of this stuff happens. It’s deep down in the amygdala. It’s not going to be in our language center. So expressive arts gets closer to that also. And that could really be. I mean, that could be anything. Could be, you know, drawing or painting or moving or singing or, you know, any way, any form of creative expression. So, like, an example would be with an expressive arts activity would be first. Just like in emdr when we do resourcing, we’re trying to calm the nervous system down. So the equivalent of that or something. Not really the equivalent, but something that’s like that in expressive arts, where we’re training ourselves to be calm, would be to draw, like a safe place or a good memory. Something that’s going to bring the brain to that place, bring our sensory system to that place. We draw it out because we have to think of the details of it. We can, you know, any of the sensory associations with that, the way it looked, the way it smelled, the way it sounded, it starts bringing all of that into play. That’s just one example. And then, you know, processing it would be maybe, you know, working through some more of the memories, either, you know, good memories or bad memories. But. So I guess the shorter answer would be that expressive arts activates that same part of the brain.
One thing I would love for you to maybe help us out, especially our listeners or someone watching this today, is if they are. Have been listening so far and starting to think, maybe I am in a toxic relationship, you know, and maybe a romantic relationship in particular. We’ll. We’ll start there. What would you recommend that they do? What would be like maybe the first. First step to do before they make any drastic, you know, moves? Let’s say, you know, so would it be to, you know, maybe, you know, seek out someone like yourself?
I would say, yeah, for sure. You know, seek outside resources in what, whatever way you can do that. And, you know, that means learning as much as you can about it. You know, definitely start journaling right off the bat. Start logging everything. Log your feelings, log what’s happening, you know, at that time. Log anything and everything. The time, the date, and what’s being said to you. Because if you are in a manipulative relationship, a chance is a good chance, is that you’re being gaslit, meaning that your reality is being twisted. So you, you want to document things right away because later on you’re going to be told that didn’t happen or that you’re crazy. And the, I think the worst part about it is feeling like, you don’t know, feeling kind of crazy, feeling like you’re dependent on this other person. So, you know, start right away, just start documenting, start learning about it. Start trying to become a little bit more independent of that person.
Now I, I so appreciate you doing that, especially the journaling part. That, that is something that I always say advise people to do no matter what, advise my clients because it’s such a great way to be able to start, you know, really connecting. Right. Making sure that, that you can keep track of what’s going on. Now have you, and have you seen this in clients that maybe this also shows up in other areas, you know, maybe in, in professional life where, where you wind up having a toxic relationship and, and how do people handle that?
Yeah, that’s a little more difficult. I actually, I don’t know. I don’t know which one’s more difficult. They’re both difficult. They’re both difficult. But in a, in a work environment, sometimes they are there for years and years. It depends on whether you are the employee or the employer because either way it’s, it’s pretty bad. And it just seems like there’s more covert ways to be, you know, toxic at work. It feels like they’re gonna try to, you know, rally people up against you. You’re gonna, you know, it’s. Again, I guess it just depends because I’ve had clients that are in toxic work environments where they’re the employee and then their boss is very toxic and demanding and they actually are a little bit more dependent on them because one of the things with toxic people is they want to foster that sense of dependency. So if, if you’re an employee of somebody that’s toxic, you’re, you literally are kind of dependent on them. So it takes a, a little more strategic, I guess, exit strategy. And if it’s, you know, if you’re the employer and then there’s an employee, the dynamics are a little bit different. But they can do a lot of damage too. You know, they’re going to try to twist your reality, they’re going to twist your other employees reality. They can become very corruptive. So I guess it’s just different for. Depending on which situation you’re in.
Yeah, it’s not, not fun either way, for sure. So, but it is good for, for people to be aware of this. I’m going to shift back gears again to, to kind of deal with the, the healing part of it. From your experience, what’s been maybe the most challenging part of the healing journey that actually has catches your clients off guard and, and how. How can they prepare for it?
Oh, man, the most challenging. It’s, you know, it’s hard to say. I think. I don’t know. It’s hard to say. The I. It looks like the more covert they are, the mo. The more covert the manipulation is, seems to be more challenging than. Even though the outright, you know, obvious abuse is challenging and it’s completely damaging and wrong, it’s easier to call that out. It’s easier to spot it and see it and journal it and log about it and then, you know, kind of guard against it. But when it’s covert and they’re, and the, the, you know, the, I guess the person that’s in the relationship is so twisted and so manipulated in their thought process, thinking that this person has their best interest at heart and they love them, you know, and they feel like that’s, you know, equal and balanced and, and when in reality it’s not. Sometimes it’s really hard to get them to recognize it in order to even begin the process of building the boundaries that are necessary and getting them back to their. Their own truest self.
Well, that’s a perfect segue because that was what I was going to ask you about next is how can people start building healthy boundaries? And, and, and since I. Most of my audience is business owners, I, I believe. Anyway, you know, how. Maybe we can start. Start there and then maybe go back to the personal side of it because it’s may or may not be easier to establish healthy boundaries with, you know, clients or, or other employees. What, what, what can, what types of boundaries can people start setting up to protect themselves?
You mean at, at work? In the workplace?
Yeah, let’s say in the workplace. Yeah. Yeah.
I think, you know, having very solid policies and having checks and balances and having accountability, you know, I think that’s a good place to start documenting everything so that it doesn’t turn into, you know, he said, she said, or I never said that, or you promised me this, or, you know, anything like that, or, you know, you were told to do this. So having very clear policies and expectations, having very clear boundaries and agreements on, you know, what is go, you know, what are the expectations? What’s the pay? What’s the expectation? And just outline that as, you know, as much as you can.
Yeah. Now, in a personal relationship, how. How can one do that as well to. To, you know, start setting healthy boundaries, you know, with. With a, you know, significant other, let’s.
Say, you know, that’s kind of the same thing. I mean, it’s not as formal as, like, a work policy or anything, but the agreements can still be there clarifying, you know, what the expectations are on both sides. And if you’re with somebody that is toxic and manipulative, that’s gonna be a little bit more of a challenge because they don’t necessarily want to clarify those agreements. They like to leave it vague and keep you guessing. So that would be one thing, you know, clear communication, very clear boundaries. Boundaries. It goes, you know, all across the board. And really, I think you can kind of boil it all down to accountability. Like what? You know, are they taking accountability? Are you taking accountability? Because if everybody’s taking accountability, then, you know, everybody. It’s. You can work it out there. You can always find a solution.
Yeah. And I think that is important for people to be able to know that they. There is hope and I guess. But actually. Well, maybe that. Maybe that is another question, though. If someone is in a relationship, is have you found that they need to get out of the relationship, or is there a way. I don’t know if that you necessarily do like couples counseling, but has there been opportunities for people to be able to, I guess, maybe heal themselves and then that maybe helps to heal the relationship?
Yeah, it’s. It’s hard because some people can’t get out of the relationship for one reason or another. Like if it’s a child and their caregiver is the toxic one, what. You know, they can’t. They can’t get out. Sometimes even in marriages, there’s situations where people can’t get out. You know, they’re financially dependent and. Or they have kids or. I mean, there’s just a number of reasons. So the best option would be to get out because it’s really hard to heal while you’re in a toxic relationship. It’s really hard to heal while somebody is manipulating your reality and twisting your reality and you’re, you know, on a daily basis because you get sucked right back into it. So if you can take some time to yourself, if you can carve out some time, just get out, get away enough to get a different perspective on it, there’s some chance for, you know, healing and regaining your sense of self. That way. If you’re. If you are stuck in it and you can’t get, you can’t go anywhere.
Yeah, I think that’s, that’s so important. And I’m. But I know, I know how it can feel really. You can feel really trapped. And again, I’m thinking back to my mom who, you know, had, was married to my dad and you know, dealt with that. But then later she finally did get divorced and wound up in another relationship with someone else who. Yeah, it was kind of, you know, different. You know, this, this man wasn’t an alcoholic, but I, but I think it was also not the best, healthiest relationship and she stayed with it because she just felt that she couldn’t support herself on her own, even though she had. But you know, those are the stories we tell ourselves sometimes, isn’t it?
I mean, and sometimes it is true, you know, sometimes, you know, I mean if you look past, you know, and even, you know, past generations, it’s a, it was a little bit more difficult for women with children to support themselves. You know, even now sometimes I see that all, you know, daycare, if they have young children, you know, three or more children or whatever, it doesn’t even have one, it doesn’t matter. But daycare is expensive and so sometimes they’re just trading daycare for their, the income that they’re earning and you know, and then it’s, it’s really hard for some of them to make ends meet and I mean, have you know, a little bit of lenience on. I feel bad for, you know, for that situation. I mean I’ve, I’ve been there. It’s hard but, but nothing is more valuable than your health. So even if you are stuck in a situation, like if you can carve some time out, you know, hours at a time, not just a few minutes here and there, right, to get out and just get, regain your perspective, get out of that mind twisting manipulation game.
Yeah, absolutely. You, oh, you owe it to yourself to be able to give yourself that, that gift. I mean that’s like the ultimate self care and an act of self love because you are, you know, caring enough about yourself to be able to, you know, extricate yourself for a little while because you, you really do, you know, as we talked about earlier, that you need to get perspective and when you’re in the middle of it, it’s too hard I think, to be able to do that. You’ve got to be able to get, get some distance and, and really take some time to do that and do all the things that you were talking about before, you know, you know, find, find a book or journal, find someone to talk to and there’s always support out there. Is there anything else that I didn’t touch on that you think is really important for folks to know with regards to, you know, either being in a relationship, in a toxic relationship, or recognizing it or, or how to be able to heal from it?
Yeah, I mean, there is a lot that goes into healing. So being patient with yourself, being compassionate with yourself is, is so important. I mean, I really can’t overstate that. You, you have to have that self compassion. When we get into toxic relationships, when someone is in a toxic relationship, we start to lose our own sense of self because again, these, the toxic person, anybody along that dark triad, they need somebody, they need to feel like others are dependent on them. Their ego needs that. And so the person that’s in the relationship with them loses their self. They, they start to lose pieces of them, of themselves, like their likes, their dislikes, their hobbies, their friends, their family. Things that used to bring them joy. So in taking for yourself, it’s also important to get back to the things that you once enjoyed or the things that you might have let go because you’re going to start noticing that like, oh, I used to have these friends or I used to like to do this stuff, or I used to be good at that. And I just don’t find that interesting or fun anymore. So, you know, just push yourself a little bit and get back into that. Get your independence back. They don’t want your independence. They’re going to try to, you know, deter you in any way that they can because they want dependency, not independence. So that is pretty important. Use that self-compassionate, get yourself dep. I mean, independent.
I love that. That’s wonderful advice. I think that is so important. Yeah. Because you, you do need to get back into doing things. Do things that bring you joy. And that, that used to so journal about that. You know, what were the things I, you know, because, because I think sometimes. Yeah, you forget. It’s like, well, what did I do when I was younger? What did I do before I was in this relationship? And, and start getting some clarity around that. And I think that would help you then decide, oh, okay, well, maybe I can go take a cooking class or, you know, or whatever it is something that is going to light you up, you know, go spend some time in the garden, do something.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah. I’m gonna love to ask you this because I do like to ask my guests this from time to time because I’d Love to see the answers. So what are you curious about right now?
I think I’m curious about just more like I’m starting to get curious about the spiritual component of healing. And I, I don’t know how to define that yet. So I’m. I’m just exploring that a little bit. You know, I, We. We kind of use phrases like higher self and. Or higher power. You hear that a lot in, you know, support groups and things like that. And I’m just curious, like, what does that mean exactly? You know, are we like Carl Young suggested? Are we all connected? You know, is there some part of ourselves that really holds wisdom that we can possibly tap into once we get back to our truest self and quit relying on the ego so much or the protective system or fear? So I think that’s where I’m, you know, starting to focus now.
I love that. Well, that’s right up my alley, and I. I definitely believe that. So. So I, I encourage you to continue on that journey and see what. See what you learn. That would be great. Oh, I know. Yes. Hello. Duh. My, my, my. Other important question here. If someone would like to learn more about you and to perhaps, you know, get in touch with you and. And learn more about what you do, where is best place for people to reach out?
Yeah, they can go to innersource therapy.com. I have. There’s a group of us. I have other clinicians that work with me, and, you know, we staff all the time. They’re all, you know, trained in this and educated in this. I think we’ve all kind of been through it. We do hold groups sometimes, which is really powerful too, because that helps to normalize it. We hold groups for people that have been in, you know, that have grown up in toxic environments, and they. It’s so amazing to see them, you know, in the groups. It’s like, wow, I didn’t know. I thought, you know, I didn’t know. I thought I was the only one. I didn’t know other people’s moms acted like this or other people’s dads acted like this or this is why I feel the way I do. And so we have those groups. We have groups who are, you know, for people who are in toxic relationships that are either struggling to get out or have just recently gotten out. So.
Yeah. Now, is this local to your community or do you have anything online as well?
We do. I mean, we have. Online. We have online groups as well. Okay.
Yeah, good. Good to know. And. Yeah, let’s see. Is there Anything else that I wanted to ask you out about, and I’m trying to, trying to remember, but this has been, it’s been really good and I really do appreciate you and I’m. Yeah. Really appreciate the time that you’ve spent with us today. And I know that I’m trusting that someone out there is hearing this and going, I need to take a look and see what’s really going on in my life. And am I. Am I experiencing joy or am I not? And so, yeah, I appreciate that. Yep. So much. So thank you very much for being with us today. Oh, I know what I was going to ask you about. I don’t want to let you go without, without mentioning this because we. I mentioned at the top of the show that I was on your podcast. So can you just say a little bit about what the podcast is? I’ll go ahead and let you. Let you plug it. So, yeah. So, people, it’s another resource, right?
Sure. Oh, yeah. Right. Oh, yeah. Tune in to listen to Healing From Toxic Abuse. And by the way, I’ve gotten a lot of feedback from the podcast that you were on, Grace, so thank you. Yeah, a lot of positive feedback. And yeah. So if anybody wants to be a guest on my show, if you have a story to tell or if you want to just learn more, it’s Healing From Toxic Abuse and probably like your podcast, it’s on Spotify and Apple and Audible and all that stuff.
All those good places are awesome. Well, I will be sure and have that in the show notes as well as the link to your website so that people can check it out. And yeah, because it’s always, it’s, it’s. It’s good to be able to have, you know, a variety of resources and, and again, you know, and maybe you have a friend who, who you think might be involved. They may, they may hear it better from learning, listening to your podcast rather than hearing it from them. You know, what do you think?
Yeah.
Cool. All right, well, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day and continue doing good work in the world.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. This was, this was very enjoyable.
Thank you. And I do want to thank all of you for listening and for watching today. And yeah, I’d love to hear, you know, your feedback. Leave a, Leave a comment on YouTube. Certainly you can reach out to me at my website. And until next time, I encourage you to go out and live fully, love deeply and engage authentically.
