In this episode we’re joined by Omar L. Harris. Omar is the Founder and managing partner at Intent Consulting, a firm dedicated to improving employee experience and organizational performance. He has more than 20 years of experience as a global pharmaceutical executive.
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Omar is also a speaker and award-winning author. He’s written several books including “Be a J.E.D.I. Leader, Not a Boss: Leadership in the Era of Corporate Social Justice, Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion.” Omar is a self-described seeker who believes leadership is the journey and that leaders should never quit on developing themselves.
On this episode of the Live. Love. Engage. podcast:
- Omar’s personal and professional history.
- What Omar became interested in early in his career.
- How having isolated cultural experiences influenced him.
- Why Omar says there are multiple paths to success.
- Why you have to assimilate before you can innovate.
- How leadership values vary across contexts.
- How leadership still needs to catch up with diversity.
- Why Omar says his work is fundamental.
- How the ego-driven approach is being taken over by a new way of leadership.
- Why now is the time for leaders to embrace new principles.
- How to embrace adversity in the workplace and why.
- Why being aligned with your partner is important as an entrepreneur.
- What drives the entrepreneurial instinct?
- How finding meaning and a sense of contribution plays into job satisfaction.
- The industries in which diversity is still lacking and why.
- What they advocate for at Intent Consulting.
- The experience Omar wants every leader to have.
Connect with Omar
- Join the Live. Love. Engage. Community
- Intuitive Business Coaching
- The Live. Love. Engage. Book
- Support the Podcast with BuyMeACoffee.com
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You are listening to the Live Love Engage podcast. On today’s show, why businesses need leaders who are a force for good versus being a toxic boss. Stay tuned. I am Gloria Grace Rand, founder of the Love Method and author of the number one Amazon best seller, Live Love Engage How to Stop Doubting Yourself and Start Being Yourself. In this podcast, we share practical advice from a spiritual perspective on how to live fully, love deeply and engage authentically so you can create a life and business with more impact, influence and income. Welcome to Live, Love, Engage,
Namaste and welcome to another edition of Live Love Engage. And I am Gloria Grace Rand, of course, your host and I am delighted to have a gentleman on the show today who is going to be really enlightening us about how to make companies better. I’ll leave it at that for now. But we’re going to go into much more detail in a second. But first off, I want to welcome Omar L. Harris to live, love engage.
Thank you very much, Gloria. How are you this evening?
I’m doing very well, thank you. And I’m looking looking forward to this discussion because I’ve been doing my research on you and you’re quite the accomplished gentleman. And so I’m actually going to dive into that first. Before we get into asking questions, I want to just share with our listeners and viewers on YouTube just what what you’re all up to in the world. So Mr. Harris is the founder of Intent Intent Consulting. He has over 20 years of global pharmaceutical executive experience. Building teams worked on four continents, and he’s been the former general manager of GSK and Allergan. And he’s also a speaker and an award winning bestselling author of five books, including his latest, which is something we are going to be talking about in a little bit. It’s called Be a Jedi Leader, Not a Boss. And I love that title. So it has nothing to do with Star Wars? No. Instead, it is leadership and the era of corporate social justice, equity, diversity and inclusion. And and if that’s not enough, I guess in your well, I’m sure you’ve had to do this by being a global executive. He speaks five languages, also plays seven instruments and started his first company at the tender age of seven. So I guess you’ve you’ve got a bit even though you’ve worked in a corporate world, I guess you also have a bit of the entrepreneurial spirit about you. So I thought we’d start with that is to tell us, tell us your overall journey that got you where you are today. What did that look like?
Yes, well, I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but I lived all over the US as growing up. So I moved to West Virginia, Lake Charles, Louisiana. I went to college in Tallahassee, Florida, at Florida A&M University. Down the street from you or up the street, rather.
I’ve also lived in Detroit, Michigan, Philadelphia, parts of New Jersey as well in my US part of my journey. I got into pharmaceuticals early when I was at Florida A&M, when I did my first internship with Pfizer Pharmaceuticals, which everyone knows very well because of the vaccine. But I was a sales rep with Pfizer in Detroit, Michigan for eight months. I did an international marketing rotation with Pfizer in Sao Paulo, Brazil, which was my first international assignment at the age of 23. I graduated with my MBA at 25 and then began matriculating through the pharmaceutical industry from that point on, primarily in marketing at first, then getting into leadership roles and then ultimately operations, which led me to be a general manager in countries like Indonesia and Brazil as well. So really along my journey I got a taste for positive psychology really early in my career, got a taste for servant leadership very early in my career as well, working for some phenomenal, phenomenal leaders who really supported me and really developed me early in my career. Got to do some entrepreneurial things at the right stages of my career as well, and get gained from experience from failure actually. And then also learned from kind of being isolated in different cultural experiences, living in Istanbul, Turkey and also Indonesia and Brazil.
So really have had a pretty interesting journey. I’m somebody who I call myself a a seeker. I’m always trying to understand more about the world, the universe and. And not someone who thinks I figured out anything as of yet. But whatever I have figured out, I try to pass on to to everyone else who is interested in trying to go on the same type of journey. I really believe that leadership is a journey, and it disheartens me that people, when they get into a managerial position, they stop developing themselves. And this is really it’s when you need the most development is when you become responsible for other people’s lives, basically. And so that’s when you need the most development, the most support. But it seems like people actually take the take the easy way. And so I’m trying to help break up that paradigm. Very passionate about building new leaders, empowering new leaders, and letting people know that there are multiple paths to success. You don’t have to do it the way that we’ve seen it be done. You don’t have to do it with the ego. You can do it with love, actually, and be just as successful. Even more successful because people you bring people with you and you build people up.
Wow. What struck me about what you just talked about was the fact that you you had your first opportunity to really work in a different country early on, I mean, in your early twenties. And I’m wondering how has that experience being able to be working in different countries, experiencing different cultures? Has that how did that impact you, maybe even personally, but also professionally in in your desire for leadership? Because I think so so often, you know, living here in the United States and people who don’t get a chance to get outside of the United States, we get this very narrow view of certainly of the world. And and I think it hurts us in being able to not only even deal with our own peers, but also then dealing with people who are living in the different countries or have a different culture. And I’m especially impressed with this because I’m so blessed that my kids are sort of following in that path. My daughter is actually living in Hungary right now, and my son has already taken a trip to to Portugal of the summer. And so they’re starting to take advantage of that and learning about other cultures.
Yeah. I think that it’s fundamental for me. It was fundamental to get that experience early in my career. I think that it required living overseas. You know, it’s one thing, it’s visiting, other things living. So to survive overseas is a whole different beast, that it will bring out different things of yourself. I don’t know if you’re familiar with. I’m sure you are. The Johari window concept of the known unknown, the no known and basically the four quadrants of self awareness. And so I really believe that the unknown unknown zone, which is basically, you know, things you don’t know about yourself and things that others don’t know about you as well. You can only figure that out by throwing yourselves into these kind of foreign experiences. So I think a great way to know, learn about yourself is to put yourself into a foreign context and and survive and go from surviving to thriving in that in that context. And I think that that was something that I learned early on. I remember in an early experience in in Brazil when I got there, I didn’t speak the language. And so I was basically eating McDonald’s twice a day based out of my own. Like, what was the name of it was Super Size Me. I was doing that.
I did my own experiment when I was 23 years old and I could only eat the big bad combo because the only thing I could say was numero one, which is number one. I couldn’t even ask for an apple pie for dessert because I couldn’t say the word for pie. It was a very frustrating experience, but it gave me all the fuel I needed to want to learn the language because otherwise I was going to be eating McDonald’s the rest of my life. So I think that that that was the kind of thing you learn, simple as that, but also much more complex lessons as well that I picked up, you know, learning in these cultures and really appreciating someone else’s history and learning that, you know, the history of how the history determines the present and really getting that context to culturally, especially when you’re leading people of a different culture as well, you really need to understand kind of the historical background and appreciate that background while still trying to disrupt some of that background if you’re trying to modernize leadership approaches and whatnot. So I think that but first thing to do is appreciate and try to assimilate as much as possible. Then you can innovate on top of that.
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s great that you’ve been able to do that. And so so have you then incorporated a lot of those lessons in like when you came back to the States? Well, and actually. Well, let me ask you, did you when you were working overseas then, did you come back and work in the United States then before you left the corporate world and started your own your own firm?
Oh, definitely. So my story is kind of bouncing back and forth by being I think in my early part of my career, I had that internship experience in Brazil when I was 23, I think got my MBA at 25 and I started working in the US and I worked in the US from 2000 to up until 2012, so I had ten years in the United States. Well, I’m sorry I said that wrong. I worked in the U.S. from 2000 to 2006. Then I went back to Brazil for two years. Then I came back to the US in 2008 and I was in the US from 2008 to 12. Then I moved to Turkey, Indonesia, Brazil, then back to the US. So I’ve kind of been kind of a bouncing around. But the one thing I’ll say about the Brazilian experience specifically is what leadership style that works in Brazil is the servant leadership style. Because one of the things that you pick up there is that they expect the leaders to, even if you could be the most rich person in the world, they expect their leaders to be humble and to be and to be people who are relatable and to be people who are who are who are very likable. So the more likable, more relatable and more humble you are, the more you can get out of your people. So if you’re assimilating, I grab that those tools and I put them into my toolkit. And then it was my first leadership experience as well. So you just take that forward and it was so very helpful to have lead in that cultural context because then I bring that back to the US of 2008 and then refine on top of it. Then I go back to I go to Istanbul and I’m working with people from 30 different countries across a vast region and that skill set is even more important in that context. And then so it’s it goes on from there.
Well, let’s, let’s shift gears just slightly, but let’s talk a little bit more now about this concept that you have about being a Jedi leader. And so and it’s you’re really talking about just as in Star Wars, that it’s like being a force for good. I love how you came up with that. People who are going to empower and enable them. So why is it so important for businesses to to adopt that type of leadership style?
For businesses, it’s a means to an end. Right. It’s been it’s been a way of achieving an objective for for millennia. And if you think about the way the changes that have undergone or that have happened in business over the course of the last 200 years, you begin to understand, you know, the Industrial Revolution was about primarily poor rural white workers coming from the the fields, from the suburbs to the cities to gain opportunity. And then they built the the that they built the industrial revolution on the back of that. And then during World War two, you have women coming into the workforce because the men were all fighting. And then that that introduces and then you have civil rights and you have more African Americans coming into the workforce. And along this journey, leadership is not changing. But but the composition of the people doing the work is dramatically changing. And now we live in a world where we have the most diverse workforce in history in terms of generations different nationalities, different ethnicities, different gender identities, different sexual orientations, all blending together, trying to do the same work. And leadership is lagging far behind. The science of leadership is lagging far behind the actual necessities of leadership, which is why we see trends like the great resignation today and things of this nature are happening. And and when you think about the four words in Jedi, justice, equity, diversity and inclusion, they become a lot more.
The more heterogeneous the group is, the more it’s a requirement for you to begin to think about how they perceive the work environment, a work environment that wasn’t built for them and hasn’t necessarily evolved over time. Right. So some of the same practices and principles that were in place in the early 1900s, the 40 hour workweek that still exists in 2021. Right. Punching the clock, which was invented in the early 1900s. All these archaic kind of concepts of management and leadership are still in place, but the people doing the work is so different. And so they because they’re different, the experience of work is different. And so these injustices persist and these inequities are prevalent and people don’t feel appreciated for the unique qualities they’re bringing to the to the work. And they don’t feel a sense of belonging, really. They don’t feel like that that anybody cares about them in their place of work. And so for me, this is fundamental work. This is work that should have been done a long time ago. This is work that all of the management science luminaries and Stephen Covey have been talking about for 20 years. And despite selling millions of hundreds of millions of books, leadership is not changing.
And so that’s really kind of that creates a lane and an avenue for more people to keep speaking about this issue. But for me, coming from a corporate background, not from a theoretical or academic background, I have seen these things and now it’s about so this is what I know what happens. I know why they happen. And I know also I can recommend strategies to navigate this in a more effective way for everyone.
Why? Why should someone like let’s say, why should a manager really follow your advice and really do it? I mean, really, because a lot of times, as you said earlier on, you know, it’s like people take the safe way out. They don’t they’re not pursuing, you know, even even even personal growth. When they get to be a manager, they’re not doing the things they need to do. They sort of get stuck in. And so you get stuck in your comfort zone and you don’t stretch yourself. So why should they be able to? What is it going to be? What’s in it? People always want to know what’s in it for me. So it’s like, you know, it’s like the bottom line. It’s like, oh, yeah, yeah. It sounds great to be able to have my people feeling great, but they’re they want to know, you know, why should I really do this? What do you say to that?
I mean, what’s in it for you now is your career survival? We’re at a point, a juncture in time now where these things are just not going to be tolerated anymore. People are voting with their feet. They’re leaving bad managers as a report early to this this year from the predictive index talking about the causes of the great resignation. And 64% of employees who had a bad manager are contemplating leaving their company versus only 27% of employees with a good manager. So this is fundamental work, actually, other other work from I read a report from McKinsey and Company last week over the fact about the Women in Work Report, and it talks about the fact that women leaders are far better at superior leaders then than their male counterparts because of these soft skills and soft attributes that we talk about. And so it all adds up to the same equation. Leadership, the standard is changing. If you don’t get on the train of the new standard, you are not going to have a manager position moving forward. So what’s in it for you is your livelihood. What’s in it for you is is your ability, your license to operate as a manager, your ability to get things done and your ability to succeed. Because the ego driven ambition, me, me, me approach to climbing the corporate ladder is going out of the window in favor of leaders who know how to maximize collective talent. Lead collaboration and lead collaboration, generate innovation, solve problems faster in an agile manner, and generate results consistently. And. A me, me, me manager just can’t do it. It’s literally impossible for you to do that in today’s day and age. In most sectors now there are some sectors that are so lagging behind. I mean, financial and maybe pharmaceutical, even health care are lagging behind, but they’re going to catch up. Excellent. And if you want a job of the future, you want to work in tech, you want to work anything like that. You’re going to have to really embrace these principles.
I want to talk to you for a second. If it’s okay that I was reading an article that you had done on your blog about where you were talking about Simone Biles and and the degree of difficulty and having that be versus and and coinciding that or contradicting with with privilege people. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I thought it was it was a really well done and really gave me pause to think about it, that it’s like we do need to consider that.
Thank you for that question. I think that it occurred to me that. We don’t have a measure of what it takes to succeed. And we we really don’t take into account what everyone’s journey is to succeed. I’m listening to. A book by Chris Gardner right now. Who’s the guy from The Pursuit of Happiness that Smith plays in the movie? And he’s a very successful businessman and author and global speaker now. But he was talking about, if you think about his story, a man who was near homeless with a single child trying to break into investment banking with no previous experience and not only getting in passing the test to become a successful investment banker. If you compare his story to someone who grew up in the suburbs and went to the best schools and one of the best university and happened upon investment banking and was always expected to succeed in that field. It is the degree of difficulty for Chris Gardner versus that other individual is is is significant. And and we have and we have no way to reckon for that in our in our talent management conversations today. And in corporations, we don’t take it into account someone’s identity or someone’s struggle. I guess we’re trying to treat everybody the same. But actually that’s where inequity comes in, is when you start treating everyone the same. If you have a single mother of two who is an executive versus a young upstart, you know, single, single woman who’s in her or her late twenties, their experience of work is not the same.
And there should be some credit due to the person who does it while dealing with tougher stuff. There should be some. Some degree of. Of consideration when we have conversations about someone’s all round skill set, they’re intangibles. Because, you know, for me, if you can succeed, despite all the baggage are handled, you’re handling that. That means to me you’re going to be a significantly better leader than someone who’s never had to navigate any obstacles. Right. Someone who life has been basically blue sky and and never really had to to to face any real adversity. So I think that we know that adversity makes us better. We know that a ship’s captain is not determined in calm seas, but in stormy seas. And so if handling adversity is something we value so much in leaders today, then we should be accounting for that adversity. When we talk about talent management, potential, all these things, we just look at the work that’s being done and a period of time. But we never account for the degree of difficulty that every different people are going through because we don’t even know we’re not asking the right questions.
And so and so this is where the whole trying to be so, so egalitarian and equal treat everybody the same way actually is a disservice to people from underprivileged identities because they don’t get credit for how hard it is for them to be just to be in the same room as some other people.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that’s why I say I loved that article because it really did hit home to me because, yeah, there are people who, as you say, who who struggle or who have grown up with some disadvantages and then they still succeed versus someone who had it a bit easier. And so how and to just be able to say, okay, well, you’re you’re you’re both the same. Well, not really, no. Because someone was perhaps hungrier. And I don’t necessarily mean that literally, but they were hungrier in spirit to be able to get the job done.
And actually, I want to argue that privilege should come with a higher degree of altruism, but it doesn’t. So if you were privileged and you didn’t have to navigate these barriers to get to where you are, then you should be far more grateful for what you receive due to no effort of your own to be far more altruistic than we see in our society today. So for me, if you are privileged, if you come from a privileged background, I would another blog about reconciling my own privilege and talking about the fact that I’ve received a lot of privilege in my in my journey of my life. And and that’s what’s made me so humble and altruistic today is, is the fact that I, I, I don’t forget about my privileges, and I know that it’s my job to pay them forward to others versus just basically say, hey, that’s the way of the world. You know, that’s your journey. This is my journey, you know, and it’s nobody’s fault. And we have nobody has any responsibility or accountability for anyone else’s journey in life. I think that’s a I think that’s a flawed argument.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think it’s it’s cop out is what comes to mind. I don’t I don’t like that because I do. You know, it’s like I do believe in injustice and being fair and with fairness. You also need to look at all all of the everything, not just not just just certain areas, but looking at the whole person. So hopefully folks that are listening to this will heed that. I appreciate you talking about.
Fairness is, first of all, if the starting point isn’t the same, that it’s never going to be fair. Right? So so that’s one. So we talk about fairness as if there was a great moment where everybody got to the same level playing field and we were now on the same level playing field. And basically it’s all equal from here. No. If you perceive someone being equal to you because they they have struggled for that equality, they’ve they’ve struggled to be in the same place as you. I mean, I remember there’s the comedian Chris Rock has a great bit in one of his shows where he talks about, you know, he lives in the neighborhood with Jay-Z and Mary J. Blige. Right. The core the absolute best at what they do in entertainment. He’s the best comedian. She’s the best singer, and he’s the best rapper. And and if you want to know who their neighbor is, if their neighbor is a dentist, a white dentist or a or a lawyer, not the best lawyer. Just a lawyer. Just but to get to that neighborhood, he has to be the absolute pinnacle of his career and profession to be able to reside in the same place as a dentist or a doctor or a lawyer and who are not even the best at what they do.
Yeah, absolutely. It’s a challenging world we live in and the hopeful thing. I think is is that there are folks like you out there who are bringing these subjects forward and talking about it. And hopefully it will continue to get through to people and they will start to be able to implement these things, these changes that are so needed. I want to go back a little bit because I think it’s also important for people to know that, you know, the entrepreneurial journey is is not easy. And even for people who, as you said, you know, you had some privilege, but you did mention that you had made some mistakes or had some failures along the way. So can you share what was something you failed at and maybe what was the lesson you learned from it?
Yeah. So what I basically, my my corporate career was interrupted twice. It was interrupted in 2009 when another company bought my company, my farmer company. And I decided at that moment to take the severance package and go off on my own. And so then I ended up working for a startup where we were trying to basically create some inclusive technology. For corporations. And really what I learned in doing that work was basically you have to make sure you have a good partner. So, you know, I didn’t pick the right partner. We didn’t have the same vision for what we were trying to accomplish, probably because we have different we’re from different generations. So my partner was a gentleman who had survived cancer, who was in his who’s in his seventies and a six foot five Italian with wide hair and who survived cancer cancer survivor. And I was at time with 30, 34, 34 years old. You know, the world is my oyster and trying to create the next big thing. And so we can never get on the same page about what we were trying to accomplish with this with this business. And it ultimately sunk the business. And so, you know, some conflict is productive and it actually can drive towards better results. But some conflict is destructive. And if you can’t get on the same page around the ultimate goal you’re trying to pursue in the short term, even a medium term, as with as an entrepreneur, if your partners are not aligned to that, let’s say you have partners who who their exit strategy is to sell in two years.
And and you want to build something in ten years. It’s not going to work. And so and so we fail to raise the money to sell the company because we were trying to just build the application out. And so we didn’t follow the traditional we kind of beta testers and then, you know, it was always about making money versus making meaning. And so I learned from that experience that when you try to make money, you, that’s your whole purpose. You will probably fail more quickly than if you try to make meaning something meaningful that changes and enhances people’s lives. That will be something that’s much more has a lot more longevity to it. And so you don’t have to rush that process because you’re trying to make meaning and meaning comes from the outside end. Like you can’t you can’t determine what meaning is for someone else, they have to tell you. And so that’s a longer process to figure that out. And so that was that was an important entrepreneur lesson that I gained at that time of my in my career.
Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that. I appreciate that. And and yeah, I do know that picking the right partner is is very important. I was working with someone that it started off great. And then we we did we started having different visions for how we wanted to take things. And and I realized I finally said, you know, I think we’re better off just going our separate ways. And and luckily we hadn’t really gotten too far along in even monetizing anything. And so it was a nice clean break. But yeah, you’ve got to be very, very careful about that and and really vet the person and I guess get to know them and what their goals are early on. So I appreciate that you sharing that story with us. Is there anything that you wish you had known when you first started out, especially even other than that, you know, even in some of your entrepreneurial ventures that you’ve had?
I think that, you know, I a lot of I was waiting to be in a position of influence to make changes happen within corporations, you know, kind of working the inside track and you change it from the inside. Right. But you you’re trying to wait until you have enough weight behind your position to make change. And and I realize that’s a faulty premise. I think that you can make things you can make change happen at any level in our organization just by being courageous and speaking up and letting people know just what you see and what you don’t see. So, for example, when I came into my my career as a marketer with an MBA in 2002, I didn’t see any other African American people in marketing. So I could have basically told my boss or talk to HR or said, Hey, what are we doing? I had mentors, African American mentors in H.R. and we could have had a conversation about what strategize about how do we do this better, you know, because we’re not seeing it happen. But you don’t think it’s. I didn’t take responsibility for that. I just observed it and noted it, but I didn’t do anything about it. And so I think that if something bothers you, it’s an opportunity that that little that little itch you have, these are all opportunities for improvement. It’s the same thing that drives the entrepreneurial instinct is that these little problems you see, that’s the basis of entrepreneurism is basically solving problems that other people may feel, but they haven’t.
No one else has done it or no one else has done it the way you want to do it. And so listen to that little voice, because that’s the beginning of innovation and beginning of change. And everybody can make change happen from from any any position in an organization. And if you work for an organization that doesn’t support those type of changes, then you can find an organization that does. And you learn that early on, if you speak up and get shut down, then it’s probably better for you to go someplace where you can actually contribute from the beginning. Because it’s because you’re new in an organization doesn’t mean you don’t have anything to contribute. And so I think that that’s something that I would have I would have if I could go back, I would probably be a lot more assertive early on related to that particular issue because it still hasn’t been solved. I mean, you still don’t see a lot of a lot of diversity in certain roles like finance or I.T. or marketing, sales, leadership, you know, you don’t see and these are kind of high profile roles and organizations that you still don’t see that coming through. And it’s because everyone’s waiting for someone else to do the job. We’re all we’re all waiting for somebody to come and do it and no one’s doing it. So we might as well do it. We might as well do it.
So I think that’s absolutely yeah, that’s way definitely so very good advice because yeah, if you wait and that’s that’s something that I’ve learned as well because if you wait too long for anybody else to do it, then it’s not going to get done. So you might as well do it yourself. So that’s awesome. Is there anything else that I haven’t asked you about that you’d like to share with our listeners today?
No, I think I think that the last part about this type of leadership and this leadership transformation that we’re advocating for is it’s a better way to live. It enhances your life. So, you know, it’s not only about your livelihood and maintaining keeping your license to operate, but it also enhances your own life. When you connect with people individually and understand their stories and start to develop them, you you get boosted by every single person you help achieve. And developing Rome. And so this is something that I would like everyone to experience for themselves. The leader is that that that that that boost that comes from actually not just. Not just achieving a number or whatever it is, but helping the people around you get better. That’s that’s the best kind of boost in corporations.
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here and for sharing your wisdom with us today and also for all the good work that you’re doing. And I really appreciate it. If someone listening would like to know more about you, maybe see how they can get a hold of one of your books. What’s the best way for people to reach out.
On my website? Omar L Harris dot com has all my other links. If you’re on LinkedIn, you can also find me under Omar L Harris. Those are the two best places for us to interact.
Okay, awesome. Well, thank you again for being with us today. Really appreciate it. And I’m sure I have all your information in the show notes for those who are listening. So thank you.
Thank you so much.
All right. And thank you out there as well for listening and for subscribing. And in fact, I also want to give a shout out to Liz Kelly, who recently left us a five star review on Pod Chaser. So we really appreciate that. And if you would like to leave us a review, I might shout give you a shout out as well. So take advantage of that. And if you also would ever like to have a chance to chat with me about anything, you can also go to engage with Gloria Dotcom and set up an appointment. And if you need some help getting clear on your goals, I’m happy to help you out with that. So until next time, as always, I encourage you to go out and live fully, love deeply and engage authentically.
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